#Eulora log for Saturday, 2017-02-18

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danielpbarronwould take longer than there is time between server resets00:01
mircea_popescuah00:02
mircea_popescui dunno, i started a click on a q ~25 cons bundle this morn, it's about half done00:02
mircea_popescumore like 2/3 actually, looking at it.00:03
mircea_popescusay about 10 hours maybe00:03
danielpbarronthe one i'm doing will probably take 4 days00:03
mircea_popescucrazy00:04
lobbesbot`AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (22.5622960164 hours)00:17
lobbesbot`AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (21.5621919125 hours)01:17
lobbesbot`AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (20.5621730261 hours)02:17
lobbesbot`AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (19.5620930881 hours)03:17
lobbesbot`AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (18.5620849931 hours)04:17
mircea_popescupoint in case : 3.8mn bv of ingredients, 1.12 mn bv of bps04:17
*** lobbesbot` is now known as lobbesbot04:31
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (17.5619078933 hours)05:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (16.5616709608 hours)06:17
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lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (15.5614206517 hours)07:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (14.5613739556 hours)08:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (13.5612734558 hours)09:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (12.5610155897 hours)10:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (11.5609128786 hours)11:17
diana_comanif it's of any interest: foxy sees 8-30 cft for small wwb11:40
mircea_popescui suppose your recipe list has to turn into a bunch of wiki pages now huh. so people can add such reports.11:46
mircea_popescuanyone feel like doing the conversion ?11:46
diana_comanbundle 6330q -> 11 wwb 610q11:48
diana_comanand yes, cookbook now kind of outdated, sigh11:48
mircea_popescuhey, it had a good run11:49
mircea_popescuyear+ or so11:49
diana_comanI guess so; one might also think the new numbers are not entirely unrelated to those previous values, so there might still be some value in having them there as they are now, too11:51
mircea_popescuthey're certainly not unrelated. game expanded, didn't change.11:51
mircea_popescuand this is generally the idea going forward : eulora will become more complex, but not substantially different. like say a polygon interpolating a circle : as a hexagon it is different from its octogonal form, but it still interpolates the same circle.11:52
mircea_popescucorners change, edges change, but something stays the same.11:53
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (10.5607009958 hours)12:17
mircea_popescu"Minigame announced at some point (I meanwhile misplaced the reference) that should BTC/USD ratios increase significantly, it will float the ECu, but by a degree of magnitude and through the procedure of " <<< does ANYONE know the original, 2014ish reference for this ? i can't fucking find it. danielpbarron ? anyone got it saved ?13:12
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (9.56053385611 hours)13:17
danielpbarronmircea_popescu, http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-01-14.log.html#t14:40:1913:23
lobbesbotLogged on 2016-01-14 14:40:19: <mircea_popescu> also as a point of policy, since we're talking about this : i intend that after bitcoin crosses 1k again, once it looks stable-ly there, to devalue ECU/bitcoin such that each btc buys 10mn ecu instead of 1. as part of this, everyone will receive a sum of cash equal to 9x the sum of their cash and the q-adjusted market-value of all things they own. so in this sense, both training and keeping above-mkt value13:23
danielpbarroni was always curious if magic bags and golden goose also will have adjusted outputs13:24
mircea_popescuaha! tyvm!13:28
danielpbarronis the promise that they will always pay euloran poverty welfare, or that they pay out potential fortunes if held long enough13:29
mircea_popescuand yes they will. making a statement re all this now, so will cover all angles.13:29
danielpbarronoh, nice!13:29
mircea_popescudanielpbarron they were sold not given away. auction and all ; with discussions of free btc/eur rate etc.13:36
mircea_popescuwell, the bags were given away, but anyway.13:36
danielpbarroni know i received the bag and bid on the goose with the idea that they would pay out a certain amount of BTC13:41
mircea_popescuyeah.13:42
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (8.56029137306 hours)14:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (7.56004845944 hours)15:17
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lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.55999209167 hours)16:17
hanbot!Qbid 17 6.5mn16:18
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 6.5mn from hanbot overbidding danielpbarron Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.53918527306 hours)16:18
danielpbarron!Qbid 17 6.825mn16:33
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 6.825mn from danielpbarron overbidding hanbot Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.29432353222 hours)16:33
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (5.55981038528 hours)17:17
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lobbesbotPost from dianacoman: The open sores of monkey code <http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/02/18/the-open-sores-of-monkey-code/>17:34
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (4.5595396525 hours)18:17
lobbeshttp://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-18.log.html#t11:46:31 << I'm trying to grok the implications in terms of my building out an items database; does this mean each individual player has a unique BOM for each craftable item?18:18
lobbesbotLogged on 2017-02-18 11:46:31: <mircea_popescu> i suppose your recipe list has to turn into a bunch of wiki pages now huh. so people can add such reports.18:18
lobbesI'm using the assumption of "bps = your recipe for a given item", but is that correct? I wasn't sure from what I could glean from wiki18:24
danielpbarronlobbes, for your purposes nothing has changed18:43
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mircea_popesculobbes yes, but for quantities only19:14
mircea_popescudoesn't affect you19:15
mircea_popescuas far as you're concerned, the item list hasn't changed, and the base values haven't changed, so you're golden.19:17
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (3.55943738694 hours)19:17
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lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (2.55931134556 hours)20:17
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lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (1.55929117306 hours)21:17
diana_comanhm, foxy gets 8-10 lbn for tiny tpt; that makes a bundle > 2k q and with that she gets....q5 tpt ffs; and about 12 of them, not exactly a pile21:30
mircea_popescuhuh check that out.21:34
mircea_popescu!~calc 11 * 2021:36
jhvh1mircea_popescu: 11 * 20 = 22021:36
mircea_popescu!~calc 0.05 * 12 * 15921:37
jhvh1mircea_popescu: 0.05 * 12 * 159 = 95.4000000000000221:37
diana_comanall of a sudden bits of nothing are NOT that valuable anymore it would seem to me21:37
mircea_popescu!~calc 95.4 / 22021:38
jhvh1mircea_popescu: 95.4 / 220 = 0.4336363636363636521:38
mircea_popesculmao why the hell does it round to 621:38
danielpbarronabout the % loss i saw on everything i've tried so far21:38
diana_comandanielpbarron, hm, I actually had some gain on making poccs and ma21:39
danielpbarronover or under craft?21:39
mircea_popescui got butchered on consen ;/21:39
diana_comanand the small claim earlier gave foxy 600+ q iirc21:39
diana_comangot butchered on a cons too , mircea_popescu, there is that21:39
mircea_popescudanielpbarron i can't fucking tell. 4mn worth of bundle, like 2.5k q21:39
diana_comandanielpbarron, technically speaking oc since I got numina to show for it21:40
danielpbarronyou can get numina on an undercraft21:40
danielpbarronor at least, could before this update21:40
diana_comano.O how is that?21:40
danielpbarronmaybe ~you~ can't21:40
mircea_popescuah there is that yes. overcrafted.21:40
mircea_popescuwell anyway. i did get nums21:40
diana_comannumina on an undercraft? how is that danielpbarron ?21:40
danielpbarrondiana_coman, maybe has something to do with not being the highest skill in everything21:41
diana_comanor what do you call undercraft as I suspect you have a def of your own21:41
mircea_popescui dunno about that. i don't think you can get numina with uc21:41
diana_comanI consider undercraft anything where output > input calculated as qabv , all of it21:42
diana_comanand I really don't see how can one get numina with uc (unless it IS a toil which makes numina, ofc)21:42
mircea_popescuno because pops can be oc.21:42
danielpbarroni think i see undercraft as when the output quality is greater than the input quality, although that's not as straight forward to measure anymore21:42
diana_comanah, that explains it danielpbarron ; thinking in quality terms it can be I suppose21:43
diana_comanbut input quality of what exactly? of bp? of bundle?21:43
danielpbarronbundle21:43
danielpbarronwhether it is under or over is determined by the blueprint21:43
danielpbarronwhat you call undercraft is the extreme case where the difference is so great that no numina comes out, or perhaps has such a low chance of coming out that you don't see it21:44
diana_comanmircea_popescu, remember earlier discussion? I make the difference output as bp output, so loot is not included21:44
diana_comanbasically input -> output + loot, where loot might be 021:44
danielpbarronand it's not so straight forward as output + loot21:45
danielpbarronit's a probability field where the number of units per click isn't necessarily an integer21:45
diana_comanprevious discussion I mean this: http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-06.log.html#t21:05:0621:46
lobbesbotLogged on 2017-02-06 21:05:06: <mircea_popescu> so which is the overbuild ? if bundle q > enum q ?21:46
danielpbarroni have done crafts where i increased the value from bundle to product and still got numina21:46
diana_comandanielpbarron, do you mean that output varies? o.O ; loot I mean there precisely as a variable quantity, yes21:46
danielpbarronstill lost value overall when factoring in the loss of value in blueprint and container21:46
diana_comandanielpbarron, sure, the input is NOT only bundle21:46
diana_comaninput is bundle, bp, decay, whatever else goes IN21:47
diana_comanso exactly, you WERE still overcrafting, hence getting numina21:47
diana_comanalso: NO numina is not in itself a guarantee that you did not do oc21:47
danielpbarronis this foxy the player talking or diana the coder talking?21:48
danielpbarronis over/under craft even a thing? from server's point of view. are there different things that get triggered based on if something was an overcraft or not?21:49
danielpbarronor is it just a naming convention players use21:49
diana_comandanielpbarron, foxy talking21:49
danielpbarronunder your definition of undercrafting i'm not sure you could ever be sure you undercrafted something21:50
diana_comanyou mean you assume hidden inputs, or why?21:51
danielpbarronyou say "no numina" is not in itself a guarantee21:51
diana_comanto my mind crafting or building or whatevs is a process: something goes in aka inputs, something comes out aka result+loot if "outputs" is a bit misleading21:51
diana_comanwell yes danielpbarron because I did not see it as being "=" hence the "->"21:51
diana_comanconsidering the pops, it's quite clear that loot varies21:52
diana_comanon the other hand, results seem to be stable or at least they were until this last update as far as I could see21:52
diana_comanas in: making cft ALWAYS resulted in 1 cft21:52
diana_comansometimes there could be loot as numina or even as MORE cft21:53
diana_comanbut never 2 cft in the firt container slot basically21:53
diana_comanso: the only way to know if oc or uc is to compare qabv of input and qabv of result21:53
mircea_popescudiana_coman basically you call loot anything that may show up that wasn't on the bp ?21:54
diana_comanand it's a very straightforward comparison with the advantage that it's clearly defined, can be done upfront etc21:54
diana_comanmircea_popescu, exactly, yes21:54
diana_comanthose new bps are a bit confusing in this sense, I'm not yet sure I figured them out21:54
danielpbarroni'm not sure loot is a useful word in that sense. the extra cft is really part of the first pile if you look at the entire craft run as a whole. at your skill level and with certain blueprint q and bundle q you get a certain percent of output as product and the rest as numina. and the final numbers are rarely integers21:55
diana_comandanielpbarron, uhm, trouble with that danielpbarron is that at same skill and same q in sometimes I GOT extra cft, sometimes I did not get it21:55
diana_comanso then how does that work?21:55
diana_comanand I mean it over runs21:56
diana_comannot single craft21:56
danielpbarronit works because there is an average over the whole run21:56
diana_comanmy experience rather contradicts this hypothesis21:56
danielpbarronidk how you can know when you got "extra" product in a run21:58
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danielpbarronsure it varies by some %21:58
diana_comansimple: I set out to make 100 cft, it ate 100 bps, I ended up with 102 cft21:59
diana_comanor I end up with 100 cft21:59
diana_comannever ever with 99 cft for that matter21:59
danielpbarroni was clocking in at around 92% product to numina21:59
danielpbarron100 cft isn't really much of a sample size21:59
diana_comanI did not mean the numbers here as sample size, just as example re "how can you know when you get extra in a run"22:00
danielpbarronwhy would you get less than 100?22:00
diana_comanwell, if the whole thing is as you say a proportion thing and non-integer etc why wouldn't you get less sometimes? as in: more numina and less cft?22:00
danielpbarronit's in terms of the value, so this is accounted for in the quality22:01
danielpbarronpre-update i was getting 92% of output ~value~ in product22:01
diana_comanfor all and any combinations? o.O22:01
danielpbarronno but a lot of stuff came to that number i think22:01
danielpbarronit's in the log22:01
danielpbarronor wait, was the the profit number22:02
diana_comanuhm, so then what sort of thing is this "a lot of stuff came to that number but not all"22:02
diana_comanI would suspect you were basically building the runs to get that, as you were fine with that22:02
danielpbarronno yeah that was about right i think22:02
danielpbarronwell anyway, even if the number was 1% that wouldn't mean you get less product than blueprints22:03
danielpbarronjust would mean the quality is super low and you got a ton of numina22:03
diana_comanmy point is: if you are SURE to get as many products as blueprints, that is result or call it guaranteed result22:04
diana_comanI saw q changing based on bp q and bundle q (and those were interchangeable by the way - how does your model account for that?22:05
diana_comanq of course changes qabv and it fits my model just fine22:05
danielpbarronis undercraft as you call it even supposed to exist? is it an imbalance meant to be nerfed in a future update?22:05
diana_comanmy understanding is that one of oft-repeated eulora concepts is that things are balanced in the sense that nothing is created out of thin air22:06
danielpbarronisn't that's what's happening when someone undercrafts?22:06
diana_comanso this means there is some consideration of what goes into something and what comes out, but obviously this doesn't seem to be very liniar or straightforward22:06
diana_comanaccording to s.mg sheets it's not really22:07
diana_comanwhen I oc I tend to lose money on most runs22:07
danielpbarroni don't think we're doing a whole lot of it yet22:07
diana_comanI might make it up on a pop22:07
diana_comanbut otherwise I tend to lose money basically22:07
diana_comanwhen I uc , I make money by definition but that to my mind simply balances the other22:08
danielpbarronand if we all tried to undercraft for long enough we'd run out of a way to do it and be forced to overcraft something?22:08
diana_comanI quite suspect so: for one thing if we all undercraft it means that we get higher q stuff, right?22:09
diana_comanso then we run out of low q stuff, no?22:09
danielpbarronhow do you figure that?22:09
diana_comanuhm, let's see22:09
diana_comanbv in general is equal to bundle value at 100, right?22:10
danielpbarronthat's counter intuitive because you get higher quality from overcrafting22:10
diana_comanhm, not really22:10
diana_comanwe have evidence that q of bundle and q of bp are interchangeable in terms of how they influence output q, do we agree?22:11
danielpbarronwhat do you mean interchangeable22:11
diana_comanif I use bundle q 3 and bp q 150 I get the same output q as when I use bundle q 150 and bp q 322:12
diana_comaniirc mircea tested this repeatedly22:13
diana_comanbut you are actually right a bit earlier - I got confused and it's the other way around (to same effect though): so we use high q stuff to undercraft and we get low q stuff; then we run out of high q stuff, no?22:14
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (0.559058811111 hours)22:17
danielpbarronno it is overcrafting that decrases values overall22:17
danielpbarroneven if in a per-click basis you may be doing what gets you higher quality22:18
danielpbarronlike you want a higher q product, but in the process have to degrade even higher quality ingredients22:18
danielpbarronin the all undercraft world, we'd run out of blueprints22:19
danielpbarronwouldn't get numina anymore, blueprints would come out lower and lower quality, making it harder and harder to undercraft22:19
danielpbarronand in all overcraft world, all value gets shredded into numina eventually22:20
diana_comanwell, it's easier to undercraft with low q bundle and high q bp, hence my initial statement that one uses low q items to make high q ones and then runs out of low q items22:20
danielpbarroni guess it's no one thing you "run out of"22:20
diana_comanundercraft means no numina by definition basically, yes22:21
diana_comanand yes, it's a simplification this "running out of X " - basically it's a system that tends towards a balanced state22:21
diana_comanand to do so it provides incentives for whatever it is it's missing basically22:22
*** Joins: mircea_popescu (~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu)22:39
mircea_popescudiana_coman yeah that's the problem though... suppose you get 9 cft. well... how much of it is loot by your definition ?22:43
hanbot!Qbid 17 7.2mn22:45
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 7.2mn from hanbot overbidding danielpbarron Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (0.0981986211111 hours)22:45
lobbesbotAUCTION # 17 has ENDED: 54 AW q 226 SOLD to hanbot for 7.2mn coppers. Attn: mircea_popescu22:51
mircea_popescuwd sniping :D22:51
hanbotincidentally given how lobbesbot works this'd seem the "correct" way to bid, ultimately with whatever automated bidder up to x amt. mebbe there'd be interest in extending closure times if lastbid <= 10 mins or w/e22:55
mircea_popescuyeah that's not a bad idea.23:02
lobbesif folx want that, I can make that happen23:04
mircea_popescuyeah, pm for autobid up to x, and a +10 mins if last bid within 10 mins function23:04
mircea_popescuthat way people will create shorter auctions i expect.23:04
lobbesk, added to the ol' todo list23:06
mircea_popescuty!23:06
lobbes!QRSS eulora223:06
lobbesbotlobbes: 2017-02-18T14:18:37+0000: Eulora Special Playable Character List <http://trilema.com/2017/eulora-special-playable-character-list/>23:06
lobbesadded 'trolloludens/feed/' to the announce (finally)23:07
mircea_popescuah nice23:07
lobbesI gotta add hanbot and danielpbarron's blogz too23:07
mircea_popescuyeh can't hurt. and diana_coman 's23:07

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